Wishtank
Four Interviews with Josh Waitzkin (think Bobby Fischer)
by: Garrett Heaney
“There’s this wonderful buddhist story, an ancient Indian story, and basically the parable is this: If a man wants to walk across the Earth, and the Earth is covered with thorns, he has two answers, he has two possilbe solutions: He can cover the entire Earth with leather, which will take a lot of time — that’s the external solution — or he can make sandals, that’s the internal solution. And I really believe in making sandals.”— Josh Waitzkin in interview with Ben Mack
A few nights ago my brother GOMAR2, sent the Wishtank team a link to an interview between Dave Lakhani and Josh Waitzkin. Waitzkin is that dude whose prodigy chess game was portrayed in the movie “Searching for Bobby Fischer,” (based on the book “Bobby Fischer: The Father of a Prodigy Observes the World of Chess,” written by Josh’s father, Fred Waitzkin.) He’s also that dude with this on his resume:
• 8-time National Chess Champion
• 13-time Tai Chi Chuan Push Hands National Champion
• Two-time Tai Chi Chuan Push Hands World Champion
When he was 10, Josh defeated chess master Edward Frumkin in six moves by sacrificing his queen and rook to set up the mate. At 11, he played to a draw with World Champion Gary Kasparov — of course, this feat was accomplished during an exhibition where Kasparov played 59 kids simultaneously. Josh was one of two children to earn a draw.
Josh Waitzkin earns draw against Gary Kasparov at age 11
The interview that GOMAR2 forwarded was the third in a series of interviews broadcast on the Profitable Magic podcast. In May, Waitzkin released his book The Art of Learning: A journey in the pursuit of excellence, and this was the central focus of the Profitable Magic interviews (as well as interviews on NPR and ABC News).
The Profitable Magic interviews were by far the most engaging, and consist of over three hours of audio. The interviewers Ben Mack, Paulie Sabol and Dave Lakhani are respected thinkers who Wishtank takes seriously, so get comfortable, grab some graph paper and take notes. Here are the links:
• Ben Mack and Joshua Watzkin discuss Joshua’s book “The Art of Learning.” Use the link below to learn more about “The Art of Learning.”
• Paulie Sabol speaks with Joshua Waitzkin. Joining in the conversation are Jeirek Robbins and Manny Goldman providing relevant questions and commentary. Use the link below to explore “The Art of Learning.”
In the interview, Dave Lakhani continues the conversation with author Joshua Waitzkin about applying “The Art of Learning” in our lives, passions and business. Jerry “Rhino” Clark and Robert Butwin enhance the learning experience with relevant questions and opinion.
And oh yeah, you can buy The Art of Learning here if you are interested.
Towards the end of this interview, Waitzkin, mentions conversations he has shared with RZA and compliments both his creative mind and his chess game. Being a fan of the RZA as a producer, I decided to look into his chess skills and will share my findings in part two of this post tomorrow.
If you are interested in reading an interview with Waitzkin rather than listening, this article in Chess Life Magazine is my recommendation. The interview was conducted by Bruce Pandolfini, Josh’s first chess coach (see photo below).
Here are three exchanges that we liked from the Chess Life dialogue:
Bruce Pandolfini: In The Art of Learning you bring out several original principles of competition that have significant resonance for chess yet I’ve never seen formulated before. At first I thought these ideas related more to Eastern thinking and the martial arts than what grandmasters do, but your lucid explanations and classic analogies made it clear how fundamental they were to championship chess. I’d like to get into some of these concepts, though I’m curious how these insights first came to you. Was there a moment or period in your life that proved particularly fruitful for developing such an understanding of competition and success or was it more of a gradual progression?
Josh Waitzkin: Well, I think most movements in life are a gradual progression, even if we aren’t aware of the steps. For me the revolution came when I was 21, 22 years old. I was studying Asian philosophy at Columbia University. My relationship to chess at this point was much more about personal growth than about competition. The movie [Searching For Bobby Fischer] had had a very complicated effect on my chess life, and I had been drawn to Buddhist and Taoist philosophy by a desire to reconcile the internal and the external, ambition and personal growth. I had a lot of questions. I had felt blocked in the learning process for a few years at that point, and when I started studying Tai Chi all my ideas came back to life. Once I gained a technical foundation in the martial arts, I began to feel as though I was manifesting my chess understanding through Tai Chi. And my chess game became fueled by the sense of fluidity and “unobstructedness” that I felt meditating and doing Push Hands…
Josh Waitzkin and his first chess coach, Bruce PandolfiniBP: Tell us about your concept “slowing down time.”
JW: Well, like most good things my training in “slowing down time” began with a lot of pain. I was competing in the super-heavyweight finals of a big Push Hands tournament. I only weighed about 170 pounds at the time, but I often went up in weight classes for the extra challenge. My opponent was a 230-pound bruiser with a bit of a mean streak. The rules of this event were that you have to stay on your feet and in the ring, and the target area is the waist to below the neck. I had been controlling the match and with about 50 seconds to go, he countered an attack of mine with an explosive shoulder pulse that broke my right hand. I felt it shatter and then time slowed down. It was wild. On the video his hands were coming at me like bullets but in my mind they were floating at me like clouds. I was able to easily win the match with one hand ... and then I had some thinking to do. If the human mind can slow down time in an emergency, how can we train ourselves to do this at will? This event became a beacon in my training, and I began to develop a method of changing my perception of martial flow by drilling techniques and combinations of movements until I saw them in more frames than my opponents…
BP: I’m afraid we’re about to arrive at our journey’s end, and, for now, a final question. Your father, Fred Waitzkin, has aptly described the world of chess struggle as a black and white jungle. Do you have any advice you’d like to offer our readers in their own battles with competition and the pursuit of success?
JW: Well that’s a big question, Brucie! I guess if I had to boil it all down to any one thing, it would be to live a life that is true to yourself. I think that any meaningful question in life has more than one answer and we should all strive to discover our unique voice. Of course this is not to say that we should be self-indulgent. Excellence takes hard work any way you cut it—but learn in a manner that resonates with your spirit. Play chess by expressing yourself with as little obstruction as possible. Break down the walls between the conscious and the unconscious, between life and art, between you and me. The fact is that when the pressure is fierce in any pursuit, unresolved psychological wrinkles and inorganic parts of our game will be exposed. The more honestly we learn, the more freely we flow when everything is on the line.
And of course, as Ben Mack gracefully invites all of us to join his conversation with Josh, we welcome our readers to engage as well. Please send your insights and questions to . We are currently developing a mail column where readers will have an opportunity to share their thoughts and communicate with the Wishtank tribe.
All materials published on wishtank.org are under the shared copyright protection of Wishtank magazine and the original authors, photographers and artists who created them. For contractual reprint or copy permission, contact Garrett Heaney at editor@wishtank.org. Wishtank likes to share, but looks out for our contributors. ©2007 and beyond